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 Post subject: The shame of it all ...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:25 am 
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Victor Meldrew
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Just checking my service records.

Hornet last got an oil and filter change in July 2015 :( :eek :o

Mind you, only 2000 miles elapsed since then. Order hastily placed for oil and filter …….

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 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:16 pm 
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True Horneteer
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Yeah - the duration between oil changes can get easily overlooked when you are doing low mileage.

A couple of years back I was doing a long commute and I was averaging over 4 thousand miles every three months so oil changes were very frequent.

These days I'm doing lower mileage and I hit 12 months with the same oil well before I'm hitting 4k mileage.

Honda say change oil every 8k or 12 months (whichever comes sooner) - but personally I always changed oil and filter at 4k - I've also heard that oil should be changed every 6 months, but that seems a bit extreme - 12 months seems ok to me if the mileage has been low?


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 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:31 pm 
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Hornet Lord
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This is a bug bear with me... why change it every 12 months if the mileage is low?
I think it's marketing bullshit...

Engine oil has a 6 year shelf life, but as long as no separation has occurred then it will likely still be fine after then. A lot depends on the storage conditions. Mineral & Semi Synth is more susceptible to cold as wax can form in the oil. Though surely this wax will melt back into the oil as it warms up.

This info was from given to me in an email from FUCHS Silkolene btw.

So if it's 6 years sealed, I'm going to go out on a limb and say 2 to 3 years open or in an engine should be fine.

When I say this to people they normally get upset and start going on about the acids in the engine as by products of combustion....
Anyone going to bite??

:)


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 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:33 pm 
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True Horneteer
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Quote:
When I say this to people they normally get upset and start going on about the acids in the engine as by products of combustion....
Anyone going to bite??


Not me :angel

I've always taken these official schedules with a pinch of salt and tried to apply a bit of common sense - and engine oil manufacturers stating that oil needs to be changed every 6 months rather than the traditional 12 regardless of mileage is a great way of doubling your profits.


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 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:43 pm 
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Victor Meldrew
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I think it depends very much on the engine.

After 500 miles, Silkolene Comp4 drained from 50 year old aircooled Honda 175 is minging, thin and jet black, probably full of horrible combustion products..

At 2000 miles, the Castrol Power 1 Racing fully synth in the Hornet is still clear and golden. Water cooled engine, much tighter tolerances leading to less blowby past the rings.

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 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:54 pm 
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True Horneteer
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I hadn't thought of the issue in those detailed terms - nice technical perspective. :D


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 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:08 pm 
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Hornet Lord
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richard pitman wrote:
After 500 miles, Silkolene Comp4 drained from 50 year old aircooled Honda 175 is minging, thin and jet black, probably full of horrible combustion products..


Comp 4 is a semi-synth so not as hardy as the Castrol fully synth.
I guess the 175 doesn't hold as much oil either, and is running harder for the same given speed/distance as the Hornet, so will tend to be harder on it's oil. My thinking is it's running at a higher average percentage throttle but spread over a lesser quantity of oil.

Also if it's becoming so thin after so few miles it could be thinning out due to fuel contamination. I know that on some bikes a leaking float valve can lead to fuel leaking into the engine when parked, which runs past the rings and into the oil.


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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:22 am 
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Knob Magnet
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knee_jerk wrote:
This is a bug bear with me... why change it every 12 months if the mileage is low?
I think it's marketing bullshit...


Anyone going to bite??

:)


Not so much a bite, but an observation :), we in the Military do what is called OHM (oil health monitoring) due to the vast amounts of oil that some vehicles need, but then dont get any real mileage done, it was costing ££££££ to the tax payers, when we were changing fluids on time only maintenance periods!!
so now if a vehicle hasn't moved for a set period, we take an oil sample and get it lab analysed for acids, moisture and contamination, if it is still ok then we dont change it!!
but engine oil is a moisture magnet just like brake fluid, so if left for long periods between heat cycles it can become damaging to an engines internals.

PS just looked at my Service Records.......................i have now been serving for 41.5 years :)

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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:50 am 
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Hornet Lord
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Good to hear.
Large transport companies also rely on oil analysis rather than time (or distance covered) for that very reason. The cost of a full oil change on a lorry can be pretty large I've read.
One good system I heard off being use for plant equipment, it was change based on the amount of fuel used rather than run time, which does seem to be a more relevant marker of oil work done.

370steve wrote:
but engine oil is a moisture magnet just like brake fluid)


Not really, well yes to a point. Engine oil will absorb some water but it's not on the same scale as brake fluid, and as the engine oil gets so hot when running it will boil off any absorbed moisture, so you are essentially start fresh each time (as long as it was fully run up to temperature).

That's my take on it anyway.. 8o


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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:30 pm 
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Victor Meldrew
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Quote:
Also if it's becoming so thin after so few miles it could be thinning out due to fuel contamination. I know that on some bikes a leaking float valve can lead to fuel leaking into the engine when parked, which runs past the rings and into the oil.


Yes, as I recently posted in another thread, that's what kills those old Hondas. Bottom ends are bullet proof, massive main bearings that wouldn't be out of place in an old Brit 650, but the cam runs in plain aluminium castings, which melt if the oil is thinned with fuel or otherwise interrupted, perhaps by a spanner muppet using silicon gasket sealant elsewhere in the engine. Fuel tap is always turned off when engine is not running, for just that reason, old float valves generally incontinent.

The CB175 engine holds 1.5 litres of oil, the CB200 a tad more, and runs at around 7.5k rpm cruising at 60mph, and obviously redlined through the intermediate gears, 10K rpm +. I'm still sure that it is the wider tolerances ( and wear ) in piston to bore on an air cooled engine that causes most of the contamination in the oil. The muckiest of my three engines has never been apart, and it is possible that the detergent in modern oil is still shifting some of the crap out of the works.

Regarding the Comp4, some of the pundits on the HT forum reckon we should run on mineral oil, as that is what the engines were designed to run on back them. I can't follow this argument, surely the modern stuff has to be better, provided it is the same grade (10/40w) and JASO etc spec.

EDIT And of course, the Hornet has a proper paper oil filter, the 175/200 just has a guaze screen on the oil pump and a centrifugal oil spinner.

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Ten years have got behind you
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You missed the starting gun


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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:42 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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knee_jerk wrote:
(as long as it was fully run up to temperature).

That's my take on it anyway.. 8o


There is one of the big problems! bike up to running temp, dont mean Oil is too 8o
especially with water cooled engines, My chip fat burner does heat the oil up nicely though :eek

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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:32 pm 
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Hornet Lord
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370steve wrote:
There is one of the big problems! bike up to running temp, dont mean Oil is too 8o


Too true!

My 1190 is the first bike I've had that has an oil temperature sensor, the bike apparently will not let you rev over 6,000 unless the oil is above a set temp (30 DegC I think).

I've noticed that anywhere between 75 to 100 deg will be normal running temperature (depending on ambient and traffic), but to get up to that actually takes about twice the time/distance as it does for the coolant to get up to temp.
Knowing that I'm now easier on all my bikes when warming them up.


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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:13 pm 
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True Horneteer
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Was watching a video yesterday (by Matt on 'Workshop' Youtube channel*) on the fact that the engine is a massive heat sink and how this impacts oil temp, warming up engine before riding and engine wear etc.

*This guys videos are generally excellent by the way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t3bcQk4Mnw


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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:17 pm 
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Victor Meldrew
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Woke the Hornet from winter hibernation today. Used a slave battery to ease the initial startup with drained carbs, fired up on the fourth burst on the starter.

Quick oil and filter change after engine had warmed a bit, pumped up the tyres and adjusted the chain, checked that the Scott E Oiler was set up correctly ( looses settings when battery is removed for winter ), and that nothing was obviously about to fall off, then off for a test ride.

Takes a while to recalibrate the rider as well, after the last few months of 175 bimbling. Hornet engine is so smooth by comparison, throttle response seems almost instant, and revs to the limiter just like that, one finger braking instead of white knuckle handful.


Might even give the Hornet a clean if this weather continues, it still has the dead flies from previous two summers stuck to the fly screen.

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And then one day you find
Ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run
You missed the starting gun


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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:30 pm 
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Victor Meldrew
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Now to change the coolant, brake fluid and fork oil, Busters / M&P order placed …..

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And then one day you find
Ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run
You missed the starting gun


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 Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:23 pm 
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Victor Meldrew
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Fork oil changed. Brake calipers cleaned and greased, brake fluid in the front circuit changed.

Need to change the rear brake fluid now, took me a while to remember how the rear caliper and pads went back together 8o.

And then there's the coolant, but that's a five minute job. Might even give the bike a clean and polish after that, the two 50 year old Hondas it shares a room with are showing it up ...

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And then one day you find
Ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run
You missed the starting gun


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 Post Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:51 am 
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Victor Meldrew
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So I changed the coolant the other day, went for a ride.

Yesterday, checked the coolant level at the rad cap, and as expected, it had gone down a tad, as all the bubbles purged from the system.

Went to top it up with some fresh coolant from an opened bottle. Removed cap from bottle, went to pour it into radiator.

Just stopped myself in time. I'd only gone and picked up a bottle of DOT4 brake fluid. :eek 8o

Gawd knows what that would have done to my cooling system, which incidentally is still on its original 20 year old hoses, which are still in excellent condition. Most car hoses would have perished by now.

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And then one day you find
Ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run
You missed the starting gun


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 Post Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:21 pm 
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True Horneteer
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Yeah - same with the SIlkolene engine coolant and fork oil I use - they come in identical I litre bottles - very easy to mix up if you are not paying attention. :Bang


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