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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:21 am 
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Hornet Pilot
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:25 pm
Posts: 70
Location: Belleville, Ontario
Hey Nest,

Day 0
I've been waiting for this moment for nearly a year, I finally can have some fun with my '04 hornet 600. I got some big plans for my bike, and I plan on getting most of it done this week as I have a week off school and surprisingly with no homework… So I am seizing the moment!

DISCLAIMER: I am in no means an "expert" on motorcycles. I am an enthusiast who loves to learn. This thread is me sharing my current knowledge, and an invitation for you to share yours as well :)

This is a pic of my bike from last summer before I drove it 2400 miles from Tucson, AZ, to Ontario.
Image

Here's what's happening right now:
- installing 1998 CBR600F3 36mm carbs (with jets)
Image
Image

- installing 2001 CBR600F4i cams.
Image

some things I've already done:
- K&N air filter
- decent muffler
- regeared to -1/+3
and some minor aesthetics.

Onto some business! I'll be posting photos of my progress, and then information for those interested :) This'll be fairly comprehensive… a LOT of planning went into this project before even touching the bike. anyways, without further delay!

_________________
1975 Honda CB360T - orange
1976 Honda CB360T - orange (rebuilt from ground up)
2004 Honda CB600F - matte black


Last edited by DirtyHaste on Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Day 1
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:44 am 
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Hornet Pilot
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Posts: 70
Location: Belleville, Ontario
So Day 1 was off to a rough start.

So I pulled the bike out of storage, and moved it to my place, and as I was taking the straps off, I took off the wrong side first which resulted in a fall… on the right side… which dented the tank…. :Bang
Image

Here is the dent in this pic. I was bummed out from this, but then I figured it justifies me getting it repainted to the paint scheme I want, ha ha. There is always silver lining in the clouds I suppose… even if it'll cost me more time… haha
Image

Anyways. First thing's first. Removing the seat, and tank to expose the guts. This was a lot easier than I thought. Once you take the pin off, you literally lift the tank off and unplug the hoses underneath. oh and make sure the petcock of shut off… another mistake on my behalf. :Bang
Image

Found some dead hornets on my hornet. :lol
I had to post this one… sorry for the cheese!
Image

So once I got the valve cover off you get to see the goods. I noticed that they're are mechanical lifts, NOT hydraulic. So I am assuming the shims are underneath… Ha ha, in this pic below I had a little freak out because the one of the F4i cams had this piece on it, which clearly doesn't fit as you see. But I had made a thread last year that addresses this problem. 370steve helped me out on this one, he said "you just cut the cam position senser mounting off the end of the
cam… push the plug out of the piece that got cut off and re used it, then get the cam machined to the same hole diameter as the bit cut off and pressed the plug in with some bearing fit to hold it in place". I have access to machines that'll help me out, so that'll be later this week. Here is the pic:
Image

Now here is where I left off for the night. I put the cylinders in their top dec centre position and the markings on the cam gears didn't match up for some reason. I have no manual with me so to switch the cams without the manual, i will be doing a a lot of counting links on the timing chain, turning, recording what ever, so when I get to installing the new cams, it'll be easy. I'm going to Honda tomorrow to see if the guy there has any insight about it. Anyone of you have any information on this? :help
Image
Image

Anyways, this concludes today. Tomorrow I will be running some errands, so we will see how much work i'll be getting done tomorrow on it. I hope to get the carbs off tomorrow, and start machining on those by the end of the week.
Ill post all my background information here on what I found and what people have said about these changes to this bike for those interested.

Feel free to ask me questions along the way :)

Cheers

- DirtyHaste

_________________
1975 Honda CB360T - orange
1976 Honda CB360T - orange (rebuilt from ground up)
2004 Honda CB600F - matte black


Last edited by DirtyHaste on Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:58 am 
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Hornet Pilot
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:25 pm
Posts: 70
Location: Belleville, Ontario
Some info on sprockets:
I went -1/+3
- increased torque by 12.9%
- decreases top speed by 12.9%
(power wheelies in first with no added upgrades, woooo :angel )

Source: http://www.sprocketcalculator.com
I plugged in OEM @ 15/42
and the other selection 14/45

FAQS:
Q: Do you have to change the chain length?
A: No, get the same chain length, which I believe is 110 (is that right?!)?!. When ever you get new sprockets, you should get a new chain regardless.

Q: Should I go -1/0 or 0/+3?
A: I recommend 0/+3 if you feel the -1/+3 is too kuku for you. The reason because the larger gear on the back is less susceptible to wear. I this this increases torque by ~6.5% and decreases top speed by ~6.5%

Q: Why?
A: Why not?

_________________
1975 Honda CB360T - orange
1976 Honda CB360T - orange (rebuilt from ground up)
2004 Honda CB600F - matte black


Last edited by DirtyHaste on Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:06 am 
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Hornet Pilot
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Posts: 70
Location: Belleville, Ontario
For the CBR600F3 36mm carbs.

So this one was tricky.. I had to do a lot of digging about this one, but ultimately 370steve had the most info about this. I will be quoting him in this section.

So for the conversion of the stock carbs for the new carbs, Steve said "had to splice the TPS wires, cut the inlet trumpets down and swap the choke slide from the CBR for the hornet one. carbs fitted the hornet inlet rubbers no problems, and airbox fitted ok"

After seeing the CBR600F3 carbs, everything makes sense with what this is.

I will be jetting these carbs, too, which will be fun :) jetting the bigger carbs will be perfect with the CBR600F4i cams.

recommendation: DO NOT get the CBR600F3 carbs unless you have CBR600F4/F4i cams! explanation in the next post.

_________________
1975 Honda CB360T - orange
1976 Honda CB360T - orange (rebuilt from ground up)
2004 Honda CB600F - matte black


Last edited by DirtyHaste on Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: The Cams
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:19 am 
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Hornet Pilot
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:25 pm
Posts: 70
Location: Belleville, Ontario
getting some theory today, ladies and gents.

This is copying and pasting from another post I made, but I will be adding a little more to this thread.
Here is the original post if you care: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=28878

The main and only difference between the CBR600F3, and the hornet's cams, and the CBR600F4 (including the F4i) is the valve timing. The lift is no different. (1mm fyi). Valve timing plays a huge role in airflow through your engine, ESPECIALLY in higher RPMs

Here are the specifics comparing the hornet with the f3, with the f4/f4i:
Intake valve opens at:
Hornet: 15° BTDC
F3: 22° BTDC
F4/F4i: 22° BTDC
- no difference here.

Engine Intake valve closes at:
Hornet: 35° ABDC (open for 20°)
F3: 35° ABDC (open for 13°)
F4/F4i: 43° ABDC (open for 21°)
***F4/F4i intake valve is opened for longer; 1° longer than the hornets, and 8° longer then the F3s)

Exhaust valve opens at:
Hornet: 38° BBDC
F3: 38° BBDC
F4/F4i: 38° BBDC
- no difference

Exhaust valve closes
Hornet: 7° ATDC
F3: 7° ATDC
F4/F4i: 7° ATDC
- no difference

The only difference is that, with the F4/F4i, there is a 5° overlap (when both are opened) from when the intake valve closes, and when the exhaust valve opens. The F3 and the Hornet has no overlap. The main difference this creates is that the overlap allows for faster, and more effective fuel/air intake into the cylinder at higher RPMs. With the overlap seen in the F4/F4i there is less air pressure in the cylinder restricting the fuel/air to enter the cylinder at higher rpm, so it more-or-less "sucks" the fuel/air into the cylinder rather than "pushing" it in (this is a bad analogy). This gives the bike a really mean sound at higher rpms. mind you, the bike wont idle as good, so you should bump up the idle to 1400-1500.

You can see (and hear) how the overlap affects the Honda Civic Si (VTEC) when the car's rpms get to (i think) 7000rpm, when the VTEC kicks in. When the VTEC kicks in, it creates a larger overlap in valve timing which gives it that awesome awesome sound. Since our hornets doesn't have variable timing, it'll sound awesome ALL THE TIME! haha.

I hope this isn't too grey. If anyone else can explain this differently, or if i'm totally wrong, you're welcome to correct me :)

Here are the sources I used
http://www.bulkky.com/honda-motorcycle- ... cification
http://www.bulkky.com/honda-motorcycle- ... cification
- I pulled the hornet's values from the manual.


Recommendations:
- You can jet the OEM carbs without needing new camshafts. lots of people do this :)
- if you want the F3 carbs, I recommend getting the F4/F4i cams because the extra air flow in higher RPMs will require more fuel from the carbs.

_________________
1975 Honda CB360T - orange
1976 Honda CB360T - orange (rebuilt from ground up)
2004 Honda CB600F - matte black


Last edited by DirtyHaste on Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:45 pm 
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Victor Meldrew
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Posts: 5166
Location: Worcester
Interesting thread, be good to know how you get on.

Quote:
Some info on sprockets:
I went -1/+3
- increased torque by 12.9%
- decreases top speed by 12.9%
(power wheelies in first with no added upgrades, woooo :angel )

Source: http://www.sprocketcalculator.com
I plugged in OEM @ 15/42
and the other selection 14/45


Need to qualify the bit in red.

Theoretical top speed reduced by 12.9%.

Real World ( where drag comes into the equation)top speed unaffected.

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And then one day you find
Ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run
You missed the starting gun


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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:15 pm 
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Hornet Pilot
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:25 pm
Posts: 70
Location: Belleville, Ontario
richard pitman wrote:
Real World ( where drag comes into the equation)top speed unaffected.


Haha, yeah I actually thought the increased torque would make a difference in real life, actually increase the top speed with the gear reduction. But turns out I only get to ~220-225kph faster, and can't go much faster than that… but at least it gets there faster! lol
:rollin

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1975 Honda CB360T - orange
1976 Honda CB360T - orange (rebuilt from ground up)
2004 Honda CB600F - matte black


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 Post subject: Day 2
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:32 pm 
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Hornet Pilot
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:25 pm
Posts: 70
Location: Belleville, Ontario
So I am starting day 2. I had to do some running around, ordering gaskets, and new decals.. the valve cover gasket is $50CAD haha. I lot more than I expected. But I also picked up a bike stand, AND buddy threw in the tool that syncs the carbs! So now I don't have to take it to a shop for $150CAD, I can do it myself!

Anyways, here are my plans tonight, I'll post pics at the end of the night and show you guys what I did!
- Modding the new camshafts, and fitting them in
- removing old carbs, and MAYBE tinkering with the new ones. I have my dad here tonight that knows a lot more about carb adjusting, fixing, etc (he's been a mechanic all his life).

Anyways, cross your fingers for me! Hopefully I won't drop it on it's side again :Pray

Side note: I'll be posting specs on valve clearance, and all that jazz later tonight. I'm still in the process of learning about that stuff.

Cheers,

_________________
1975 Honda CB360T - orange
1976 Honda CB360T - orange (rebuilt from ground up)
2004 Honda CB600F - matte black


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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:52 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:07 pm
Posts: 17
Hey!

Nice write-up. Youre doing exactly same things ive concidered to do next winter, i have other things going
this end of winter.

When you get all installed and running, please tell us your feelings about upgrades.
And good luck!

Ps. Freaking winter, 1~1,5 months still to go for exepted spring on Finland :cry


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 Post subject: Re: Day 1
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:26 pm 
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Hornet Pilot
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:25 pm
Posts: 70
Location: Belleville, Ontario
DirtyHaste wrote:
Now here is where I left off for the night. I put the cylinders in their top dec centre position and the markings on the cam gears didn't match up for some reason. I have no manual with me so to switch the cams without the manual, i will be doing a a lot of counting links on the timing chain, turning, recording what ever, so when I get to installing the new cams, it'll be easy. I'm going to Honda tomorrow to see if the guy there has any insight about it. Anyone of you have any information on this? :help
Image
Image




This positioning is not TDC as I thought it was. TDC has those markings you see on the bottom picture level with the valve case. I found an online manual to help me out :)

_________________
1975 Honda CB360T - orange
1976 Honda CB360T - orange (rebuilt from ground up)
2004 Honda CB600F - matte black


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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:27 pm 
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Hornet Pilot
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:25 pm
Posts: 70
Location: Belleville, Ontario
Inline wrote:
Hey!

Nice write-up. Youre doing exactly same things ive concidered to do next winter, i have other things going
this end of winter.

When you get all installed and running, please tell us your feelings about upgrades.
And good luck!

Ps. Freaking winter, 1~1,5 months still to go for exepted spring on Finland :cry


Hey Inline,

Yeah, I hear you on that one, too. See my first pic on the above post with the bike on the trailer? lots and lots of snow… I'm in the same boat as you :cry

_________________
1975 Honda CB360T - orange
1976 Honda CB360T - orange (rebuilt from ground up)
2004 Honda CB600F - matte black


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 Post subject: Day 2
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:02 pm 
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Hornet Pilot
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:25 pm
Posts: 70
Location: Belleville, Ontario
Day 2

Day two flowed really nicely. I started machining the F4i cams, and finishing those up today(which is day 3). When I pulled off my carbs I got really disappointed because I have to order new parts for the F3 carbs that it didn't come with… :cry so i'm a little annoyed by that.. and I am confused with how to fit the hornet's air box into these new carbs.. I'll explain with pics below.

Anyways, some photos of my progress last night.
I pulled off the OEM cams, which was a really easy. just a few screws holding down the cam covers.
Image

Then I mounted the CBR600F4i cam in the vice, held with wooden pieces so it won't damage the cam
Image

Ha ha, this was the scariest part for me to do… I felt like if I messed this step up, I would have to find new cams.
This was the tool I used to cut the Exhaust cam of the CBR600F4i
Image

And this is the result!
Image

The tool I used
Image

Now I don't have the proper tools to refit the end plug back into the cam, however, I have a good connection that will do a good job on it, so that's where the cam is today, hopefully I can get it back tonight, and then get it installed! :D

So when I started pulling off the Air Box on the hornet, I decided to take a peak at the air filter to see if it needed cleaning…………… and then OH MY GAWD!
Image

At first I thought that A mouse found it's way into storage and nested (somehow) in my K&N air filter! but no mouse poops, and no evidence of food… This is so weird to me because this is only about 5000 miles of riding in ONE SEASON! and it's THIS dirty! I recommend everyone check their air filters after every season… because this is crazy… What the actual material is inside is drywall insulating… how it got in there? God only knows.
Image

pulled the air box off! only the carbs left!
Image

And then everything came to a screaming halt.. Turns out I need the CBR600F3 air funnels to do anything.. I am actually at a stand still about this. I have done as much research as I could, and everything seems too vague for me. The carb on the right are the 34mm hornet carbs. the carbs on the left are the CBR600F3 36mm carbs.
Image

I honestly have no idea how to work the OEM air box with the CBR carbs. The screws are interchangeable from the hornet's to the CBR's, which is nice, but the hornet air funnels do not fit the CBRs, and the hornet air funnel mounts that attaches to the air box do not fit the CBRs. I know it's possible because it HAS been done before…

What really is bothering me right now is the "HOW". I looked on 2 other peoples posts about the swap (both people are well known ;) ), but I guess i'm not smart enough to figure it out, or I am too scared to try anything because i'm on a student budget right now… I need more insight, and help on this. Because I see that once the air box fits onto the CBR carbs, the rest is easy. trade choke bars, do some splicing with the throttle position sensor wiring..

Once I figure it out, I will make a How-To post for a step-by-step on how I swapped the carbs… just need to do it first. ha ha..

help...

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1975 Honda CB360T - orange
1976 Honda CB360T - orange (rebuilt from ground up)
2004 Honda CB600F - matte black


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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:59 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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Location: Catterick, North Yorkshire
check out the bottom of this page, showes you how i fitted the hornet airbox adapters onto the cbr carbs 8o

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9352&start=120

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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:42 am 
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Hornet Pilot
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Location: Belleville, Ontario
370steve wrote:
check out the bottom of this page, showes you how i fitted the hornet airbox adapters onto the cbr carbs 8o

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9352&start=120


Thanks, Steve. :angel

do you happen to have those other photos in that post? they aren't showing. It doesn't really matter anymore as I am holding the Carb mod until next year. I will only be jetting the 34mm hornet carbs. :)

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1975 Honda CB360T - orange
1976 Honda CB360T - orange (rebuilt from ground up)
2004 Honda CB600F - matte black


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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:52 am 
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Knob Magnet
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Yep, I still have the pics on my PC, had to empty photo bucket account! too many pics :(

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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:33 pm 
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Hornet Pilot
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Location: Belleville, Ontario
370steve wrote:
Yep, I still have the pics on my PC, had to empty photo bucket account! too many pics :(


Haha, that's a lot of photos!

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1975 Honda CB360T - orange
1976 Honda CB360T - orange (rebuilt from ground up)
2004 Honda CB600F - matte black


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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:53 pm 
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Hornet Pilot
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Location: Belleville, Ontario
Day 3

Today was a better day than the past couple, because no mishaps! haha! I have some awesome photos to share with you guys. yesterday was all about connections.

-So the things I did yesterday were all about the camshafts.
- Also, I decided to put the 36mm carbs on the shelf until next season. 2 reasons why, time and money.

Anyways!

This is the shop I had the privilege to work in yesterday! Lucky me, my dad is a tech teacher at a local high school, so I have all of these awesome machines at my disposal ;)
Image

This is a pic of the machine I used to cut the plug for the hole I made in the end of the Camshaft. It's quite archaic, but it works perfectly fine for what I am doing. You can see the steel piece sticking out of the end there :)
Image

The goal!!!!
Image

The cutting!
Image

The final piece before being pressed in. Not to shabby if I may say so myself
Image

So we were washing the inside of the cam using soda based water, and in this pic you can see how in the engine, the oil comes out of these holes, and lubes the valves, cams, and all that stuff under the valve cover.
Image

Here is the picture of the small pressing machine we used to get the plug into the cam hole. (I know there is a funny joke here somewhere, but i'm not clever enough)
Image

And viola!!! the final product! I am extremely happy with how it turned out. the total time for this was about 1 hour to 1.5 hours.
Image

When I brought the cams home, I placed them onto the bike properly (thank god for the manual), now I am waiting for a buddy to lend me his torque wrench so I can torque on the cam covers on properly. You can see the cam I worked on.. *sheds a proud tear*
Image

Anyways, I wanted to jet the carbs last night, but I ran out of time. So I will most likely be doing that today, and then putting everything back together. I am just waiting for the gaskets to come in from Honda.. the valve cover gasket is on back order, so can't do much until it comes in in MARCH!!! :Bang

So in the mean time I pulled off the pieces I will be painting bright off-white. I ordered red decals for the tank, and tail. I will also be painting those two plastic side covers (under the seat on each side) black, the same colour as the seat.
I will be bringing them to another buddy's shop to start sanding them down today. EXCITED!!!
Image

And that concludes Day 3!

I hope today was as productive as yesterday.

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1975 Honda CB360T - orange
1976 Honda CB360T - orange (rebuilt from ground up)
2004 Honda CB600F - matte black


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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:12 pm 
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Hornet Pilot
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Location: Belleville, Ontario
It's been a while since I posted on this thread.

Im updating to give my 2 cents of the Camshaft change over.

What I did was after I installed the CBR600F4i camshafts, I also put in a dynojet kit for the carbs, and also removed the air intake snorkel, which I believe makes that a stage 2 carb jetting. anyways, I would like to give you guys a little review on the different feeling the cams give on the bike.

With the original camshafts from the hornet, we all know the mid-range power is awesome, and power starts to taper off after 11k RPM.

These CBR600F4i camshafts I installed.... are amazing!! there is hardly a jerky power transition from 6 to 7k rpm. It's more of a smooth increase in power s RPM climbs. And the thing is just a completely different machine after 10k RPM. Where in comparison to the hornet600 cams, the power tapered off around that. It took me a little getting use to when I made the change, but the change was really worth the time and effort put into it.

If anyone is interested or thinking about doing the cam swap out for the F4/F4i, I highly recommend it. Feel free to ask me any questions, too.

So far done to my bike:
- -1/+3 gear change
- stage 2 jetting (dynojet, plus air intake snorkel removal)
- K&N air filter
- Two Bros Black Edition slip-on
- CBR600F4i camshafts

I do have one question: I noticed that i still have full horsepower between 11k to redline. is increasing rev limiter limit simple? is it even recommended?

Thanks,


Andrew

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1975 Honda CB360T - orange
1976 Honda CB360T - orange (rebuilt from ground up)
2004 Honda CB600F - matte black


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 Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:41 pm 
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Really enjoyed reading this, excellent thread :clap

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