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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:56 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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HOON98 wrote:

As well as skill and knowledge it must also take an enormous amount of patience and perseverance to get everything spot on.


yep, have had the bike apart and back together around 7-8 times now, just trying to sort the low speed running! rest of them seems great straight out of the box :D

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:36 pm 
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True Horneteer
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I guess that's what it takes to achieve perfection :D


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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:33 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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back together after adjusting the pilot screws again

https://youtu.be/C_G-8KPhAW8

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:15 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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wheel and sprocket carrier turned up today, had thought that i would be able to get some 28mm i/d bearings to fit so i

would be able to use the 28mm GSX1400 wheel spindle, but on close inspection i would need to remove too much metal

to get them to fit, so i have now consoled myself with the fact that i will need to get a 25mm spindle made and some spacers

to take up the slack, i have been round to see Taff tonight about what is needed.

he is going to modify a 25mm CBR1000RR one i have so i can use it to get the wheel mounted for measurement purposes.

once i am happy that it will all fit, i am getting a new spindle made along with all the wheel spacers that i need.


Image
Image

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:31 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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got the mock/set up spindle and spacers have been done by Taff


Image


then got the string and weight out to check alignment before removing the wheel, also did a measurement of the distance of the rim to the swing arm on both sides and also the sprocket distance, so i had a deffinative reference for when the new rim goes in.


Image


then it was out with the old and in (for now) with the new. wheel is central, sprocket has the same clearance as old wheel, disc dont look like it will be too far out! but wont take a lot to remove some metal from the hanger or make some spacers.

next job is to measure up for some wheel spacers and get a spindle made.


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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:42 am 
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Victor Meldrew
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That's a nice tip, using a piece of string like that.

I've been battling with wheel alignment on my CB174K4, resorted to trial and error in the end. I must get more scientific in my approach. 8o

( i.e. fiddle with the chain adjusters, go for a ride, see if bars straight ahead, if not, fiddle and repeat. :Bang
That said, it passed its first MOT yesterday, so guess I got it right.)

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:10 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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had a play around with fitment, spacing's of wheel, caliper clearance.

toyed with GSX14 hanger and GSXR one, fitted CBR dosc (220mm)  caliper was either touching wheel or to far from disc!

looked at if my Nissin F4 four pot rear caliper would fit, seemed to be a much better fit, but would need a custom hanger making.

also looking into getting a bigger (240 -245mm) disk, i have options, but will have to look into it.

but i see no obstacle that will cause a massive amount of stress to sort :)

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:02 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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after doing some more measuring and adjusting I have made some sketches of what i need from Taff.

wheel spacers, modified caliper hanger, some adjustments to the sprocket carrier and a new spindle

i have also ordered a new Galfer rear disc to get it all sorted for the time being, future plan is to make a new caliper hanger and

fit the Nissin 4 pot caliper on the rear.

then put her back together and gave her a well needed wash and scrub.


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Image

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:28 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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i am looking forward to getting the new wheels fitted, dropped off the bits and sketches with Taff earlier tonight, so should have bits some time this week, once i am happy with the fit

then its off to the powder coaters for the wheels :)

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:38 am 
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True Horneteer
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Those wheels are ace :love

Yep - like the string technique - absolutely vital that everything is in proper alignment - not something you can guesstimate.


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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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new galfer rear disc turned up today, fits great.

also took the four pot nissin apart so i can clean and service it before i go ahead and make a mounting for it.

i have ordered some new Ti bolts for it whilst i was at it

phoned B&C Express and talked to Chaz about sprockets for the new wheel, stock fitment in 530 pitch come in a max of 44T, but for a few more ££

I can have a 45T one made to order, so now have 45T alloy sprocket being made.

Taff is on with machining the bits i need to get the rear wheel fitted :)

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:02 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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test fitted disc and cleaned up the Nissin caliper

Image
Image

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:45 pm 
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Victor Meldrew
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Those wheels will (IMHO) look much better !

Old school spoked wheel style in a modern cast wheel.

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 4:03 pm 
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Hornet Lord

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richard pitman wrote:
That's a nice tip, using a piece of string like that.

I've been battling with wheel alignment on my CB174K4, resorted to trial and error in the end. I must get more scientific in my approach. 8o

( i.e. fiddle with the chain adjusters, go for a ride, see if bars straight ahead, if not, fiddle and repeat. :Bang
That said, it passed its first MOT yesterday, so guess I got it right.)

I got lazy the one time I've done it so far and ended up measuring the distance between the middle of the spindle to the middle of the swingarm spindle. Make sure both sides match and you should be good.


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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:08 pm 
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Victor Meldrew
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My worry with a 48 year old bike was whether the frame was bent, and that I was compensating for this by altering the rear wheel alignment.

Agreed, measuring distance between spindles definitely works on the Hornet, which is nice and symmetrical.

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:37 am 
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Knob Magnet
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I started work on making a caliper hanger for the Nissin 4 pot.
started off with a cardboard template, transferred it onto a piece of 6mm alloy plate
that i had in my stash. I have drilled and tapped the caliper mounting holes, but will need to get the spindle hole drilled out
by Taff, as i dont have any 25mm drills!
once i am happy with the fitment i will make up a drawing of what i want, and see if Taff will be able to make me one
from a piece of billet.
i am going to make up a torque arm from some S/steel bar with either rose joints or a clevis bracket that i have sat on my bench.
just waiting for the Ti caliper bolts to turn up so i can rebuild the caliper.

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:48 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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well today didnt go as planned!!! got bike out for a run to put some more miles on, checked her out and lubed the chain, all looked good.

got out around 15 miles over towards leyburn in the dales when bike started to feel rough, besides the roughness she also wouldnt hold an idle.

pulled over into a lay-by  and bike cut out, tried to start her a few times but wouldnt idle, tried to adjust the idle but she would then not come back down the revs, was holding at around 2-3K.

more i played around to worse it seemed to get. so i had a dig around as best i could under the tank with the throttle cables and carbs. from what i could see from there the locking nut on one of the cables had come undone and wound itself down the thread and was now sat against the throttle cam !!!!

as i had no tools with me i ride the bike home very carefully without much use of the throttle, coz i didnt want it jamming open.

got her home without too much fuss, but she was hunting badly at closed throttle.

stripped the tank off and set about replacing the locking nut, once that was done i re set the throttle cables and re set the idle, that was now fine but she was still holding revs FFS.

was just about to take the carbs off for a look see when i noticed the cap off the vacuum takeoff on inlet rubber No4 was missing

after fitting a new cap and re building the bike it was back out to the dales for a blast, this time she was 99% sorted, just a little bit rough at closed throttle (needs fine tuning) but was back to being ridable and a hoot, now done 250+ miles and started to give her a few more revs, still pulling well.  

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 2:09 pm 
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True Horneteer
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Blimey! Fun and games eh? I guess it's all part of the process.

I remember when I test rode my ZX7R which had been cutting out - I rode it in a very tight loop and was never more than 10 minutes pushing distance away from the house :D


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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 9:21 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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been away on a rally for most of the bank holiday weekend, so didnt manage to do much to the bike other than re build the

Nissin rear caliper with new seals lots of red rubber grease and the new Ti bolts.


Image
Image

bike was a real pig to ride back from the rally at low speed, the hotter she got (didnt take a lot in this weather sat in holiday traffic) the more she was coughing back through the carbs and getting leaner and leaner and stalling.

must have still been too much on the lean side from the last adjustment, but the heat really made it show up.

so have done another 1/3 turn adjustment and then let her sit and get up to 101% on the temp gauge with no change to tick over rhythm and no missing and popping. 

getting there bit by bit

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 10:51 am 
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Knob Magnet
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had been out for a bit, bike was running well, when i was slowing down on approach to Leyburn, was doing around 30mph on a closed throttle when the engine just

stopped!!!! no nasty noises, no knocks or judders and no locking up.

did all i could at the roadside with no tools so had to call the AA

first the good news.............................................................. the AA are not too bad at trying to fix bikes by the side of the road.

then the bad news................................................................He couldnt fix it, so i had to wait for recovery.

once i was home, it was immediately down the shed and strip the tank, carbs and cam cover off 

I will not try to hide the fact that after seeing what was under the cam cover I can claim to be a @#%$ Knob.


Will be taking the head off tonight, at the moment it is looking like both inlet valves of cylinder 2 and the rocker arm from the same :oops:
until the head comes off i wont know what damage was done to the piston(s) other valves.

this is the evidence so far

missing rocker arm

Image

the naughty bit

Image

look no bolts!!!!!!!!! FFS

Image

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 1:19 pm 
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Victor Meldrew
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Blimey Steve, that's a bit of a bummer !

Presume those are the camshaft sprocket bolts in the second picture, alongside the rocker arm ?

( It's a lesson for us all. Fortunately, on CB175 engines the camshaft sprocket is pressed on the cam, so not an issue. But on the CB200 the sprocket is removeable, held on with two little bolts. Wiser heads on the Honda Twins forum advised to use loctite on these.)

Hope there isn't any piston damage to youe engine, that doesn't bear thinking about.

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 1:36 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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Thanks Richard, yes that is the offending bolts :(
i have never had a problem with this type of cam sprocket before!
will just have to check my torque settings more carefully and use thread loc
fingers crossed on the piston damage :help

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:12 pm 
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True Horneteer
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Crikey! :eek


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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 10:22 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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tonight i removed the head and all i can say is what a revelation that was!!

there is contact marks on the pistons from almost all the exhaust valves, the inlets that snapped off the rocker arm have no marks and there is only a very slight

kiss mark on top of the piston, all other inlet valves have never contacted at any time.

think i will strip the head down and give all the valves a proper examination, as it looks like the "Viton" seals that i got from the US are shite and leaking already FFS.

learnt my lesson there (ok tell me you told me so) I have already been on to the Robinsons web site and ordered some genuine Suzuki seals for peanuts as they are on sale.

looks like i got away with not damaging the pistons by the skin on my teeth, think i will re fit the bandit cams for now, as i think the GSXR ones are just too high lift for the high comp pistons without getting the piston valve pockets increased in depth to give the valves more breathing space.

i ordered a new Cometic head gasket at the same time as the valve stem oil seals.

think i might just have got away with a bit of bother and extra cost, breaths sigh of relief

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 5:30 pm 
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after taking the head off and cleaning the piston crowns so i could give them a good check out

Image
Image


as you can see the top one is the outside left piston, the slightly worse of the two outsides that had impact marks, the bottom shot is of the No2 piston, the one i had thought

made contact causing the rocker arm to snap, but like the No3 piston is free of any impact marks  ??

so looks like i need 4 exhaust valves to be on the safe side, 

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 1:34 pm 
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found out why my exhaust valves were kissing the pistons (dont laugh)

i had the GSXR inlet cam in the Ex position!!!!!!! (stop laughing, i did ask nicely :( )

i have just been playing with the head and found it very strange that with the cams mounted where they should be, the Numbers on
the cam sprocket were all in the wrong place, then it dawned on me that they had been in the wrong places, correctly timed, but doing the wrong job.
the inlet has around 1mm more lift than the exhaust, so that explains the impact damage.
should now all be good once i swap the stem oil seals and change the exhaust valves that have been hitting the pistons :)

Right, you can stop laughing now!! its getting annoying (yes i am an old brain dead knob)

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:03 pm 
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True Horneteer
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If it can happen to a guy with your knowledge and experience it can happen to anyone - I bet loads of expert mechanics have similar stories.

On the bright side thank f**k the engine didn't lunch itself. :D


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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 7:01 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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HOON98 wrote:
If it can happen to a guy with your knowledge and experience it can happen to anyone - I bet loads of expert mechanics have similar stories.

On the bright side thank f**k the engine didn't lunch itself. :D


Yep, I have been told by a few guys about stories of similar stupidity, but usually ending in more parts than
when it started :help

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 10:40 pm 
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Victor Meldrew
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On the positive side, if you'd not fitted the high compression pistons you might not have needed to strip the top end for this problem. And then you'd have been running with the swapped cams, wondering why it didn't go as well as expected. Least this way it will be properly sorted.

Is that marked ( no. 4 ? ) piston OK to use ?

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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richard pitman wrote:

Is that marked ( no. 4 ? ) piston OK to use ?


only one way to find out :angel

I have talked to a few people who have said the piston should be ok, but to change the valves that did the damage as
they might now be weak.

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 9:29 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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spent some time today stripping the rest of the head ready for new stem seals and the new exhaust valves


Image


put the piston box to good use


Image

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:11 pm 
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got some bits today

Image


then went round to Taff's with some beer to get some more bits


Image


got the caliper hanger plate pattern back, fits great, so i can now draw up a proper hanger. got it fitted with new spindle


Image

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:18 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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sorted out the fitment of the custom sprocket onto the CBR sprocket carrier


Image


then went to work on the caliper hanger plate, think it will work out with the hanger made from 15mm alloy plate. going to get a s/steel torque arm made.


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Image

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:07 pm 
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spent the evening re fitting the valves and springs after lapping in the four new exhaust valves,

also gave the chambers a good clean out to remove all the burnt oil residue.


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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 6:10 pm 
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head back on, torqued up, cams with slotted sprockets on ( Cams in the correct place ), valve clearances sorted, engine turns over nice and cleanly.

will have a go at doing the cam timing tomorrow after making a piston stop from an old spark plug and some threaded bar.


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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 9:53 pm 
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Knob Magnet
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spent most of today learning how to be a rocket scientist, bloody head hurts from all the thinking and working out, but got the cams dialed in and sorted eventualy.

thanks to Mark/foggy for the loan of the tools for the job. appreciated mate, thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 10:39 am 
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True Horneteer
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I remember a guy on a forum I used to frequent had a 1200 Bandit - he bought some after market performance cams and had them installed by a shop - after the cams were installed he experienced some kind of timing issue which resulted in valve damage - he complained to the shop and was asking them to either put it right or compensate him for the damage - the shop proceeded to try and fob him off and the last I heard he was looking for legal advice.

From my inexperienced perspective setting up after market cams does seem to be a bit of a dark art - with a lot of trial and error potential.


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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 10:52 am 
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i am hoping i have it correct :help it is quite straight forward once you have your head round what you are measuring, where to read the measurements and how to use the formulas.
I have set it with inlets at 105 deg ATDC, and exhaust at 107deg.
there is 2.5 mm valve to piston clearance on the exhaust valves at full lift, and 1.2mm for the inlets, so looks to be safe.
Only one way to find out :Pray

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:28 am 
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last night started off on script, but then went pear shaped!

object was to slowly sort the head out, ie do it correctly this time and make sure it was all went together as should be.

cams in right place and cam caps torqued , check

cam sprockets torqued and thread locked, check

Re check valve clearances, check

cam cover seal cleaned, bonded and fitted, check

cam cover on, bolts fitted and torqued, check

engine covers on, bolts torqued, check



All seamed to be going smoothly & well, until i couldnt find my 1/4" drive ratchet handle! 

spent around 1/2 an hour hunting high and low, but find it i could not.

after sitting and thinking about it, there was no way i was going to risk starting my bike up with the chance of it being sat in the cam tunnel,

so i spent another 1/2 hour rooting around in the shed, house, utility and going through any clothes that i had worn since yesterday, still no luck.

so out with the tools and off with the cam cover................................................................. No tool  (thank foook)

replaced the cam cover and went to and turned the shed upside down, after a bit of time i came across the twatting thing down the back of a box against the side of the shed, and as if by magic it was attached to a 10mm socket, always seems to be  10mm that causes the problems.

having had enough for the evening I called it quits, with engine safe and tools back in box.

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Last edited by 370steve on Tue May 22, 2018 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: project RETRO
 Post Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 11:42 am 
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True Horneteer
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lol - classic! :angel

I'm constantly amazed by my ability to lose components and tools which I had in my hand only five minutes previously.

Either that or the bolts, nuts and washers that go pinging off into another dimension of space/time never to be seen again. :Bang

But I guess paranoia can be a good thing when you are putting an engine back together.


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